difference between pre cat and post cat o2 sensors

QUOTE (supunna_picta @ Aug 19 2007, 03:22 AM). Neither Porsche Club GB, nor any of the aforementioned, shall be under any liability in respect of any such information, advice or assistance given to members. LS1GTO.com is a forum community dedicated to the LS1 Pontiac GTO. A4 (B5 Platform) Discussion. We also use third-party cookies that help us analyze and understand how you use this website. settings. If you are boating from Kingston to Toronto, for example, you are heading upstream. New . The ECU wont be able to adjust fuel trims properly. Come join the discussion about Bimmerfest events, production numbers, programming, performance, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! The cookies is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Necessary". 2nd wire: White heater (-) In 2018, she decided to combine her passion for BMWs by creating a blog specifically for BMW enthusiasts in the region. If you are going from Kingston to Cornwall, you are travelling downstream. Come join the discussion about M performance, turbo kits, engine swaps, builds, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, maintenance, and more! These can all affect the oxygen sensors response characteristics, resulting in an extended response time or a shift in the sensor voltage curve and in the long run reduced sensor performance. When the vehicle accelerates, the ECM allows overfuelling and ignores the lambda signals. Their bodies are identical, so the threads. Confirm the fault code by selecting live data and comparing the value of the suspect faulty sensor to that of a known working sensor. This is a TSB regarding the P2096 problem. Both pre-cat sensors are identical. What to look out for in a failing O2 sensor . Because many late model vehicles have multiple oxygen sensors, be sure you correctly identify the bad sensor so you do not mistakenly replace the wrong one. Lambda sensors have an internal heater, so check the resistance of the heater it will usually be quite low. We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. In most cases, a vehicle with an inefficient catalytic converter will continue to run just fine. Inspect the exhaust manifold and fuel injectors for leaks as well as the condition of the ignition components these may affect sensor operation. Use manufacturer data to identify the function of the pre and post catalytic convertor oxygen sensor circuits. The tools used in this guided test may have been superseded and the products above are our latest versions used to diagnose the fault documented in this case study. Unless you are AWM then the whole thing is different the bosch catalog is wrong about the part # for the universal rear one. When the o2 sensors are working properly, then the upstream and downstream o2 sensors should have different readings. 1. I then tried a front universal and all was well. The "pre-cat sensor" regulates fuel supply, while the downstream sensor measures the efficiency of the catalytic converter. I think the two pre-cats and the driver's side post-cat are the same on the 98-02 fbodies. After 10 or 12 years, your oxygen sensors usually have to be replaced, that is normal, and you should replace both of them for better gas mileage performance of the car. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo, http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=ET37&mospid=47720&btnr=11_2181&hg=11&fg=50&hl=3, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21E5_u6dz0s, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter Street, Suite 600, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. tuned with EFI Live. The difference is the wire length. This is due to the fact that bank 2 is representative of an engines #2 cylinder, while sensor 2 serves as a downstream designation. Since the oxygen sensor is in the exhaust stream, it can become contaminated. 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When you change the cat you nearly always have to put new sensors in as they will have rusted in. Connect a diagnostic tool, such as Delphis DS, select the correct vehicle and read the fault code(s). O2 Oxygen Sensor Kit For Mazda CX-7 2006-2012 2.3 Turbo Petrol (both sensors) New . Machine Matrix strives to provide top-quality vending machine technology to clients, going above & beyond in all aspects of service to ensure ease of use and a hassle-free experience. Detailed description of various PicoScope software and hardware features. If you decide to do this long term, you will experience problems. Bank 2 Sensor 2 is the second sensor on the engine's exhaust pipe, usually behind the catalytic converter. Is the upstream and downstream O2 sensor the same? If you unplug the lambda sensor it will need to default to the fuel maps that its already calculated as being good. Upstream is before the Cat and downstream is after the cat. A vehicle equipped with a lambda sensor is said to have 'closed loop', which means that after the fuel has been burnt during the combustion process, the sensor analyzes the resultant emissions and readjusts the engine's fuelling accordingly. $89.05 . The technical storage or access is necessary for the legitimate purpose of storing preferences that are not requested by the subscriber or user. Once unscrewed, discard the old sensor and replace with the new unit. - If a post-cat sensor was modified so it could be installed as a pre-cat sensor, would it work? I cant help with the torque readings (or the tech builtin above but I'll keep going) but its easy to forgot that the O2 sensor is only reporting what it's seeing and the default reaction of replacing the O2 sensor is literally just shooting the messenger. Analytical cookies are used to understand how visitors interact with the website. Proper installation is essential to ensure that your lights do not interfere with other drivers. This signal is then sent to the Electronic Control Module (ECM) and the mixture is adjusted accordingly. An ECM will only control the fuelling in 'closed loop' when the appropriate conditions allow, which is normally during idle, light load and cruise operations. Definitely start with the sensors. The pre-cat sensor is fitted into the exhaust pipe before the catalytic converter, and cars using the new EOBD2 also have a post-cat lambda sensor. A sensing element sits inside the sensor, encased in a steel housing. We know that our PicoScope users are clever and creative and wed love to receive your ideas for improvement on this test. Honestly, with narrow band sensors, it WILL work. Posts made and opinions expressed are those of the individual forum members If this is your first visit, be sure to Counting how many spark plugs you see on your engine will , The coupe has a better center of gravity and is slightly lower so with completely equal drivers it will slightly and I mean slightly out handle the sedan but with everyday drivers you will never , The main difference between tail lights and brake lights is that the former lights up as soon as the headlights are turned on, while the latter only engages upon stepping on the brake pedal. Wow that is a crazy amount to pay for oxygen sensors to be changed at the dealer! Thanks! Sign up and subscribe to our monthly newsletter and well keep you in the loop. Rough engine idle or misfiring: since the oxygen sensor output help control engine timing, combustion intervals and air to fuel ration, a faulty sensor can cause the vehicle to run rough. The lambda sensor is essentially two porous platinum electrodes. It's been a while since I've checked into this.so hopefully, someone can back me up. It's been a while since I've checked into thisso hopefully, someone can back me up. I have two new original postcat sensors. Apply a clean and reusable pulse oximeter sensor to either foot. When the oxygen sensor fails, the computer can no longer sense the air/fuel ratio, so it ends up guessing. Minimize the help page. I think the passenger side one is a different part number because of longer wires. Hover to zoom. sledhead. carolinasbmwmoa.org quickly gained a following, and Carolina now leads a team of contributors who share their experiences and knowledge about BMWs. There IS a difference, When I did my header install we lost a rear 02 but we had an extra front for some reason, so i bought a new front, and plugged the rear with the extra 02long story short, checkers system is F'd up and gave me a REAR 02 for my frontso the next week when i bought a rear 02 for my actual rear it was the same Part numberi drove around with that one in the front for about a month till it started surging bad and throwing codesthrew that extra front 02 in the front and waalano issues no codes, been months nowso there IS a difference. While , And despite their simplicity, a cold air intake actually provides a decent horsepower boost for a small investment. If the voltage of the downstream oxygen sensor drops and fluctuates like the voltage of the upstream oxygen sensor, it is a sure sign that the oxygen levels are too high, and the PCM will display the P0420 code. Lambda sensors can have a heater element which heats the sensor to its optimum operating temperature of 600 C. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information. Expecially since Pre-Cat is difficult to get at. o2 sensors where is bank 2 sensor 1. bjones. Then use a spanner or dedicated O2 socket wrench - to unscrew the sensor from its seating. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Other. These cookies track visitors across websites and collect information to provide customized ads. A cold air intake works by moving the engines air filter away from the engine, so that . 325 e, i have 03 bmw 330xi and bank 2 oxigen sensor wire got burn out touching the four wire, i split it them but now get code p0031,p0600,p0051,p0037 and p0057 can anyone tell me how to check the voltage on those wire or the wiring schematic. This allows measurement of a much wider air/fuel ratio. 06-29-2005 08:28 PM. Check if this part fits your vehicle. So any cars made after 2003 only used those regular ones for downstream. Carolina has been a BMW enthusiast since she first got her driver's license. Are the sensors indeed the same functionally? However they often can skew the reading back to the DME. Oxygen molecules from the exhaust gas pass through tiny slots or holes in the sensors steel shell to reach the sensing element, or nernst cell. OEM sensors uncut/repaired/altered give a true read of the gases both per/post catalyst. Reading the trouble codes will tell you exactly which sensor is in need of replacing either the upstream (top) or downstream (bottom) sensor and on what bank (side) of the engine. I remember being taught differently in my first Bosch school BSC 1. JavaScript is disabled. 2012 BMW 328i (F30) 2.0L N20 - PRE / POST CAT O2 OXYGEN LAMBDA PROBE SENSOR SET . PicoScope is the most simple yet complex tool in my workshop for diagnostic use. But Narrowband ranges between 0-1V. Most oxygen sensors come with a special electrically conductive anti-seize compound applied to the threads, so its merely a matter of threading the new sensor into the void left by the old one. The support I have received from Pico over the years has been superb. Sensor 2 is the downstream oxygen sensor. If they have the same reading, then it indicates that the catalytic converter is damaged. Our garage has checked leaks and wiring and this is what they have done. Come discuss mods, horsepower, engine specs and more! The O2 sensor is part of the emissions system of your car that measures the proportion of oxygen in your engine. So essentially bmw did a change to the DME which came with different sensors, the wide-band I mentioned, in 2003. The POST-cat O2 sensors are the only ones effected. OP is outside USA, so does not have wideband pre-cat O2 sensors. This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. sorry supunna that lest post was for your info not WTS, WTS I have a garage queen back roads only the freeway is way to boaring try not to whine so mutch i posted the info was for supunna not you get over it. Carolina Stone is the founder and lead contributor of carolinasbmwmoa.org, a popular blog dedicated to all things about BMWs. Okay so essentially from my understanding, hopefully, someone chimes in. Phase I=140whp Phase II=230whp Phase III=Cant tell the clutch pedal from the brake! The technical storage or access is strictly necessary for the legitimate purpose of enabling the use of a specific service explicitly requested by the subscriber or user, or for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission of a communication over an electronic communications network. The best way to do this is to look at real-time data using a diagnostic tool. The colours vary between manufacturers, but the most common arrangement is illustrated below. The catalytic converter is where you will find the sensors. The pre-cat sensor regulates fuel supply, while the downstream sensor measures the efficiency of the catalytic converter. do i have to lower exhaust pipe ? This allows for best signal acquisition. Inspect the electrical connector for damage or dirt. Other tooling or equipment may be required to determine if it is the actual sensor and not the wiring that is causing the problem. The Club assumes no responsibility for any effects arising from errors or omissions. I was very impressed as to the speed and ease of ordering. are the pre cat and post cat 02 sensors the same? JavaScript is disabled. This also happens during initial warm-up. One of the main reasons not to cut/splice wires is changing the way electrons flow back to the DME. Click to enlarge. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". Why am I still getting a P0420 code after I replaced my catalytic converter? This is called open loop mode. Four-cylinder engines have two sensors, while V6 and V8 engines have four sensors. This information is an example of our investigations and findings and is not a definitive procedure. What is the difference between pre cat O2 sensor and Post car O2 sensor in term of sensor wise(not. Each vehicle may be different and require unique test The cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the category "Functional". 2,500 rpm engine speed. It lets you see what you previously had to guess was happening. It is always going to be located after the catalytic converter. All combined to achieve 29 m.p.g. Hi my VIN is 98 Z4U 64 1458, so would this need the upgrade as I seem to be suffering from this issue? Correct, yes that's the one. Porsche Club Great Britain gives no warranties, guarantees or assurances and makes no representations or recommendations regarding any goods or services advertised on this site. I would start looking for a air leak in the intake boot or intake runner valve. Most cars have at least two oxygen sensors located throughout the exhaust system; at least one in front of the catalytic converter and one or more downstream from the catalytic converter. TT (Mk1 . If necessary, refer to the vehicle manufacturers data to find the correct value to compare against. The oxygen sensor, otherwise known as the O2 sensor, does what its name suggests it measures the amount of oxygen in the exhaust. Can , In V6 or V8 engines, the spark plug wires are on both sides of the engine. The sensor signal helps keep the mixture just right. It lets you see what you previously had to guess was happening. for diagnostic use. Is bank 1 sensor 1 before or after the cat? Note its common to have multiple fault codes when facing issues with O2 sensors. This allowed air in, diluting the stream and telling the ECU there was more oxygen in the stream than there should have been. To protect against the sensor becoming welded into its threading, Delphi sensors come with anti-seize compounds either pre-applied or included in the box. 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Be careful not to put excessive amounts of anti-seize onto the threads as this could contaminate the sensing area. Heres something you probably dont know: after clearing the cars computer you will need to drive for about 50 to 100 miles. In an effort to diagnose the faulty component I have been monitoring the pre and post cat O2 sensors using the graph displays on the Torque OBD2 app, but I need some help understanding the readings. please help all stuff is breaking this wknd !! Should I replace both oxygen sensors at the same time? Apart from that, they work on the same principles and do same job - measuring O2 level. How do I know if its my upstream or downstream O2 sensor? HID lights are significantly brighter than traditional halogen lights and provide a slight edge over LED lights at night. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Maybe try a search? Click the Add comment button to leave your feedback. The downstream oxygen sensor detects the change and informs the vehicles computer. Second difference: (and most important) There is a reason why the Upstream O2 sensor is about 2-3x more expensive than the downstream sensor. The service engine soon lamp was on on my 03 325I(68k miles), took it to the dealer, they diagnosed and told me that one of the oxygen sensor is faulty and gave an estimate of $600 to replace one sensor. Downstream Sensor is in the Exhaust Pipe Post-Cat. Tighten the sensor to the recommended torque. Check the O2 sensor is reading correctly by confirming the O2 value with a four, or five gas emission analyser. and 399 r.w.h.p. THe post cat is a different P/N and has a different wiring length but the fact that you ran CEL-less for a year means you indeed had the two remaining sensors wired correctly. Bank 2 Sensor 1 is the first sensor closest to the engine. You'll ruin sensors and have nothing to show for it. Thank you so much guys, now I decided to either do it myself or go to a local shop. What's wrong with this picture? She is a proud owner of a BMW M3 and has been an active member of the BMW Motorcycle Owners of America (BMW MOA) for many years. That's where my misconfusion came from. with unbelievable performance for the money. It is what tells your cars ECU when the AFR goes rich, stoic, or lean. There is no different part number for bank1 and bank2. Remember that bank 1 is determined by the side where cylinder number 1 is located. These cookies ensure basic functionalities and security features of the website, anonymously. If both O2 sensors and catalyst was replaced then you may have an exhaust leak at the manifold or pipes. They reacts to the oxygen content in the exhaust system and produce a small voltage depending on the air/fuel mixture seen at the time. Sensor 1 is the sensor closest to the engine. Where is the downstream oxygen sensor located? Use an oscilloscope to check the signal at both idle and approx. Disclaimer Other than the connector, is there a difference? read the wiki, all common air leask are there, hi y have 2 codes po155 heated oxygen sensor bank2 sensor 1 (ho2s21) sensor heater circuit and po135 heated oxygen sensor bank 1 sensor 1 (ho2s11) sensor heater some vary can tell me the locations on this sensor and part #s or were i can buy it cheap thanks. Whereas wide-band is 1V -5V, allowing for more detail when not at ideal operating conditions. The difference between the two is about $1,000.. Even though both O2 sensors are four wire, heated O2 sensors, there are definitely differences that the Motronic can detect. Too much fuel produces hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. The technical storage or access that is used exclusively for anonymous statistical purposes. The information within is carefully checked and considered to be correct. Do NOT follow this link or you will be banned from the site! On Bank 2 means it is at the engine side with cylinders 2, 4, 6, 8, etc. 3rd wire: Black - signal For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. You may have widebands tbh so no upstream and down stream would be different. The downstream oxygen sensor(s) are located in the exhaust pipe, behind the catalytic converter. Such information, advice and assistance provided by such persons is given in good faith and is based on the personal experience and knowledge of the individual concerned. Contact information for direct sales and support queries, plus our network of global distributors. Upstream Sensor is in the Exhaust Manifold Pre-Cat. AU $309.99 + AU $45.00 postage . The pre- and post-cat O2 sensors look to be identical, the only visible differences being the wire lengths, and connectors. Available for Windows, Mac, and Linux, the next evolution of our diagnostic scope software is now available. Could I buy universal one, if not why? I know there wasnt a difference on my 02 SS. Use live data to check for signal if the sensor wiring is difficult to access. Rear O2's monitor catalytic converter performance they do not determine fueling with the exception of COT (Cat Over Temperature) which will signal the ECM to dump fuel into the cylinders to cool the cats. There is no difference between the pre and post O2 sensors. Use of the Forum is subject to the Terms and Conditions. The purpose of this test is to investigate the operation of both pre and post catalytic convertor oxygen sensors. Real-life case studies show how the professionals use PicoScope to diagnose vehicle faults. with 384 lbs of torque. Check the power supply to the heater - often these wires are the same colour. Now reconnect the diagnostic tool and delete any related fault codes. Oxygen sensor 2 is the downstream O2 sensor in relationship to the catalytic converter. The outer electrode surface is exposed to the exhaust gases and is coated in a porous ceramic, with the inner coated surface exposed to fresh air. ,t.c.bypass,descreened m.a.f. Is a brake light and running light the same? Are Bank 1 and Bank 2 O2 sensors the same? Contact the seller. A forum community dedicated to BMW E46, E90, and F30 owners and enthusiasts. The sensor is inoperative below 300 C. Fantastic products and support with unbelievable performance for the money. When responding to advertisements please ensure that you satisfy yourself of any applicable call charges on numbers not prefixed by usual "landline" STD Codes. It does not store any personal data. They both function the same but are different enough that they cannot be swapped. Downstream Rights means the rights that are acquired from the Downstream Operator by a User or the Downstream System counterparty user, in order to receive the Regasified LNG at a Regasified LNG Delivery Point. Most cars have at least two oxygen sensors located throughout the exhaust system; at least one in front of the catalytic converter and one or more downstream from the catalytic converter. This website uses cookies to improve your experience while you navigate through the website. Its job is to monitor the oxygen content exiting the catalytic converter in order to determine if it is operating efficiently. Training resources and demonstrations on PicoScope and the Automotive Diagnostics Kit. spyderchat.com is not in any way affiliated with Toyota Motor Corporation. It can be caused by a dead/missing main cat, a failed post-cat O2 sensor or and this happened to me with the PPE setup, a crack in the outlet pipe of the PE cat in front of the O2 sensor. As you drive your car the computer will monitor all the sensors and register the results. The regular software and driver updates are a real bonus. Too little fuel produces nitrogen-oxide pollutants. Members are advised to consult qualified specialists for information, advice and assistance on matters connected with their cars at all times. How do you fix P0420 catalyst system efficiency Below Threshold Bank 1? Does it matter which 02 sensor goes where? The product is excellent. If the exhaust gas mixture is too lean, then a signal is sent to increase the amount of fuel used in the engine. This enables the sensor to be located further away from the heat source at the manifold to a 'cleaner' location. We have good news! Post-cat O2 sensors have much longer wires thus they cost a bit more. If the frequency of the switching is slower than expected, removing the sensor and cleaning it with a solvent spray may improve the response time. Poor fuel economy: a faulty oxygen sensor will upset the air to fuel mixture resulting in increased fuel usage. Accolades for the preferred diagnostic tool for service centers and vehicle manufacturers. The cookie is set by the GDPR Cookie Consent plugin and is used to store whether or not user has consented to the use of cookies. Copyright 2022 Machine Matrix L.L.C. Where as before 2003, they were like yours using all 4 regular. Bringing the BMW community together. *At Pico we are always looking to improve our products. Form: Not sure if the sensor itself is any different but I know the connectors are (at least on the 04's) 2004 Yellow M6, 1 of 1014 You must use the correct ones, whether oem with the correct length cable and plug, or the correct universal equivalent, that will require you to measure and splice your old plug onto it. $64.34 . You just need to get one precat O2 sensor. Is bank 2 O2 sensor upstream or downstream?

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